Forum:Klaus Wulfenbach attacked Castle Heterodyne
I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but I'll lay it out. In fact, a variant has been suggested in-universe, by none other than Klaus Wulfenbach himself: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060322. I, of course, think that's an intentionally planted hint towards the explanation of what happened. =The facts= * Barry thought Klaus had done something horrible. We don't get to hear what, but it's bad enough that it made Barry not trust Klaus. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060324 :*However, see also Punch and Judy's reaction to him, which is suspicion but not outright hatred. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040728 * Some form of time travel eventually becomes possible, as evidenced by the mysterious portals in which we see Agatha. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040123 * The circumstances surrounding the attack on Castle Heterodyne are completely unclear. Right now, all we know is the result: the castle in ruins, the Heterodyne son dead, Lucrezia's assistants murdered, her notes burned, and her gone. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070813 :* For Klaus's story of this time and the aftermath, see http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040804 * Klaus strongly believes that Lucrezia is the Other, and possibly was always planning betrayal. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060320 * Klaus is the type of man who likes to eliminate risks. For example, his response to Agatha has been to try to capture or contain her, and then to try to kill her when he believed she truly was Lucrezia. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061129 =The speculation= What would tie all this together and fit with Klaus's character is Klaus somehow getting his hands on a time machine, going back in time, and attacking Castle Heterodyne, in an attempt to kill Lucrezia before she can flee and become the Other. This, of course, doesn't change history at all, and has the oh-so-familiar result of time travel stories. Klaus shows up at the castle, and attacks Lucrezia. Lucrezia fights back, and of course the castle joins in on her side, since from its perspective a Heterodyne's wife is being attacked. In the fighting, the castle is nearly destroyed, the Heterodyne son is killed, and Lucrezia is forced to flee before she was fully prepared. (I would speculate that she was waiting until Agatha was born, so that she would have a backup body immediately available). Her assistants are either found to be complicit in her schemes by Klaus and killed by him, or Lucrezia decides they know too much and kills them before fleeing. Ditto her notes - either burned by Klaus because they're too dangerous, or burned by Lucrezia because they would reveal too much. Klaus himself either has to go back to the present, or is killed in the fighting. Eventually, Barry finds out about this, explaining his distrust of Klaus, and wrapping everything up into a nice time loop that leaves a whole bunch of mysteries still to resolve - most importantly, what Lucrezia was already planning to do, and what he was spurred to do because of the attack. 132.236.60.153 04:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC) =Responses= + Well, that's an interesting and dramatically compelling narrative, a self-created prophecy in the style of classic time travel stories. I guess where I would dissent is that I don't think the connections make sense after the attack happens. Consider this: Castle Heterodyne blows up, Lucrezia goes missing, the Other appears and starts attacking Europe en masse (which is odd, why would Lucrezia's reaction to fleeing be to launch a well-planned, well-coordinated assault against everyone other than the person who attacked her?). Barry's reaction to the knowledge that Klaus engineered the attack on the Castle and the death of his nephew is to not tell anyone, even his brother, and then go to war with Lucrezia? Shouldn't his first instinct be to go after Klaus? And if Klaus dies, wouldn't the fact that he shows up alive set off giant warning bells to Barry that something is seriously wrong? Even if Barry did think that Klaus' disappearance three years and four months prior to the attack was related to the attack, wouldn't the fact that Klaus reappears after being killed make Barry think that Klaus is the Other? When in fact, it's almost certain that Barry found out that Lucrezia was the Other when he retrieved Agatha from her. In any event, I'm almost certain that whatever happened to make Barry suspicious of Klaus happened after the Heterodyne Boys leave for the geister world/dimension, because before that event, Barry's focused on the Other, and after, he's more focused on Klaus. It may be that he believes Lucrezia died in fighting, but went back to make sure. Hence his second disappearance. I don't think it's something that solid, because otherwise I think Punch and Judy would have reacted with instant homicidal violence, instead of deep suspicion and an attempt to escape. My belief is that what Barry brought back from his first trip re: Klaus was suspicions, not proof. My guess is this: Klaus disappears due to Lucrezia drugging him and shipping him off to Skifander. There, he's kept busy by his wife and his new son. The attack happens, Bill and Barry pursue Lucrezia to the world/dimension of the geisterdamen, and in the battle, Barry recovers Agatha (my guess is that Bill gets killed in the fighting), Lucrezia is badly wounded enough that she has to flee (as she later returns in robot form), and Barry heads back to Europa with baby Agatha. My guess is that at some point, Lucrezia insinuates that the attack on Castle Heterodyne was accomplished with the help of sleeper revanants, and that Klaus was her helper. The situation he comes back to is Klaus establishing the Pax Wulfenbach. This brings back bad memories of conflicts between Klaus' pragmatism and the Heterodyne's belief in second chances, and the fact that Klaus was Lucrezia's ex. -Vikingkingq :You've raised some good points. To address a few of them: :*For Lucrezia's reaction, I'd say she was planning her betrayal all along, just wanted the safety margin of an extra body (Agatha) first. The attack simply accelerated the plans :*I don't think we'd assume that Barry or Bill realized it was Klaus immediately - they could have gained the information later, possibly even after discovering Lucrezia is the Other :*Also, perhaps Barry had doubts as to Klaus's exact role (controlled by the Other, duped by the Other, just misguided/mistaken, just out for himself, etc.) :*On a similar vein, perhaps he learned of it through a source that falls in that gray area that makes it not trustworthy enough to fully believe, but still possible enough to be deeply afraid that it's true :Just imagine the confusion some combination of the above could cause. The story, as Barry would view it after the initial defeat of the Other, could be: :* Klaus attacked the castle (intent unknown to Barry) :* Lucrezia disappeared in the attack, as did Klaus :* Lucrezia came back as the Other, and was defeated :* Klaus came back years later, and forged an empire :So Barry is still unsure as to precisely what role Klaus played in things - but seeing the huge power he has amassed in the meantime, unwilling to take the risk of revealing himself to find out. :I'm not totally committed to this theory, but someone mentioned it to me, and I felt that it deserved a forceful argument on its behalf. There are definitely parts that require some reaching and conjecture, but what I find truly interesting about it is how many things it would wrap together and trace back to one source. Really, what you said in your last paragraph is basically what I think happened in some form or another, and Klaus being the attacker is a speculative twist. :P.S: Also interesting, though not possessed of as much of the wrapping together of the Klaus theory, are many of the variants - such as Gil doing the attack, etc. 132.236.60.153 06:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC) :Unless something would drive him truly mad (as in really irrational, not Mad or angry), I can't see how the Baron would accept that much collateral damage as acceptable. I'm not denying there's some good points there, but I'd be far more likely to believe Lucrezia came back and did all the damage herself than Klaus doing it - she's much more negligent of the cost of lives and to the ripple-effects of her actions. Corgi 07:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC) I would characterize the reaction of Punch and Judy to Klaus as more the reaction of cornered rats, rather than mere "suspicion." Klaus had the upper hand, yet Punch and Judy attacked and died with only a token effort to talk their way out. If they were merely suspicious, they could have openly laid down their accusation right there and gauged Klaus's response to it, but they didn't. They only responded with a threat, asserting that "Barry came back" without revealing that he had since gone missing again, more likely to try to throw the Baron off balance with what they thought he already knew... which apparently didn't work, possibly because the Baron didn't actually understand the significance of their revelation. They had the same certainty that Klaus was The Other, and was merely pretending to have no clue for the sake of his own (Other-hating) minions, as Klaus currently has that Agatha is The Other. Tatter D 14:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC) A worse problem than Punch and Judy's behaviour is Von Pinn's. She was present during the attack, and is fiercely protective of her wards. I really doubt she'd work with Klaus if she suspected he had anything to do with the attack that left Klaus Barry Heterodyne dead Brianmce 22:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Perhaps Punch and Judy thought Baron Wulfenbach was pretending to have no clue for the sake of retaining Von Pinn's loyalty. I don't think Baron Wulfenbach is actually The Other, or even knew at the time that Barry had been claiming he was, since The Baron's first reaction to finding this out after cracking Beetle's notes was to share this information with his command staff. However, this does not mean he didn't attack Castle Heterodyne. With Wulfenbach now secretly a revenant in service to The Other, and time travel clearly a possibility, it's would play fabulously well into The Other's plans if Wulfenbach were sent back in time with clear orders to destroy Castle Heterodyne, and perhaps even set himself up to pretend to be The Other, well enough to thoroughly convince Barry, Punch, Judy, and Dr. Beetle. Tatter D 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC) : If there was enough to convince Dr. Beetle and the others, there would be enough for Von Pinn (also present in the castle at the time) to at least suspect - and I don't see her as someone who gives the benefit of the doubt where her charges are concerned. Witness her reaction to hearing about Agatha and Gil for instance. Besides, it looks like Dr Beetle was better informed than Klaus about who the Other is. When Klaus deciphered his notes he mentioned "He believed Agatha would be able to control slavers" - implying he already knew Lucrezia was behind the wasps. The big question then is why Beetle, Barry, Punch and Judy don't trust him. We don't know this reason, but we do know the source: Barry. See Klaus:"Apparently Barry claimed that I", and Judy: "Barry came back". These all imply that its something Barry learned on his travels, rather than anything anyone observed during the attack, that made them distrust Klaus. Brianmce 23:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC) :: But then, neither Barry nor Bill were there at the time either. Von Pinn was driven completely insane by whatever launched the attack, and probably was not a source of much more useful information than the other survivors. The fact that the presumed vanished Wulfenbach was there would stick in their minds more than anything Lucrezia was doing, at least at the time. However, it's clear to the readers (but NOT to the Heterodyne Boys or their allies, as will be important later) that Von Pinn now hates Lucrezia with a passion. Whether this is because she has finally made sense of the things she saw, or because Klaus somehow twisted her will to fight him, is hard to say. In any case, Barry wouldn't be particularly inclined to communicate with her after she started working for the Baron, and her actions might even confirm a suspicion they had at the time but couldn't face... the possibility that Lucrezia and Wulfenbach had been working together all along to destroy Castle Heterodyne. Really, without the critical pieces of the puzzle, such as Von Pinn's hate for Lucrezia and the honesty of the Baron's efforts to rehabilitate (rather than just kill) the Revenants, the Pax Wulfenbach would have looked to any rational person like a very profitable "good cop, bad cop" game between Lucrezia and Wulfenbach. Tatter D 15:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC) ::: That's the problem though - the information that made them distrust Klaus didn't come from anything anyone saw at the castle, despite the presence of witnesses such as Von Pinn, nor was it something Barry learned from examining the aftermath - it was something he learned from wherever he went afterwards. There's no reason to think Barry would have learned something about the castle attack from whereever he went better than people who were actually there. Even if you discount Von Pinn as unreliable, there were other survivors (eg. Carson) and since Barry investigated after the attack, he'd certainly have talked to them. If he did find evidence of a time-travelled Klaus, it seems doubtful that it was in any way related to the castle attack. More likely to me is that Lucrezia framed him in some way. She was responsible for his disappearance, so would have been capable of setting him up, and choosing the optimal time to throw suspicion his way. If time travel is involved, it seems more likely to be the other way: eg. perhaps Barry was transported to the future, only to observe Klaus ruling the world and trying to kill his neice. Brianmce 21:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC) :::: Why would Barry have to have known it was a time-traveled Wulfenbach who attacked Castle Heterodyne? The non-time-travelling Wulfenbach had vanished two years before, and would not be back again until after the time traveller had pulled a vanishing act himself. Barring some sort of omniescence on the Boys' part, the timeline would look to them like "Wulfenbach disappears for two years, then destroys Castle Heterodyne and kills Bill's son as part of his plan to remake Europa in his own image and/or some twisted revenge for Lucrezia's spurning him." And Wulfenbach would have no clue that Bill and Barry were actively avoiding him, having only returned to find them missing and Europa in chaos; the course of action he took only served to confirm his motives as far as Barry was concerned. Tatter D 17:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC) ::::: He wouldn't - there's no reason for Barry to suspect timetravel - by "time-travelled Klaus", I'm just speaking from our perspective, not what Barry would think. Its just that there's no reason to think Klaus *did* (or will be going to have done) attack the castle, and plenty of evidence that he wasn't involved. There's no observation of his machines or his personal presence by any survivors, so if he did travel back and do so, it was indirectly and covertly. There's no reason for us to think he would have done that, never mind that Barry would have found evidence for it wherever he went. If Klaus has time-travelled and been observed by Barry doing something to cause suspicion, then attacking the castle seems fairly low down on the list of potential crimes given when he came to this conclusion - after the attack and while out of contact with any reliable witness to it. ::::: Here's an alternative theory that I find much more likely: Barry thinks (or maybe even saw) that Klaus killed Bill. Klaus is the perfect patsy for this. From Barry's perspective, he's romantically involved with Lucrezia, but she spurns him and marrys Bill. As soon as he learns of this, he vanishes. A few years later, the castle is attacked and Lucrezia vanishes. Bill and Barry pursue. That's the perfect setup for Lucrezia to kill Bill and throw suspicion on her jealous, spurned and suspiciously absent ex-lover, Klaus. Throw in time-travel and a wasp-posessed Klaus (which as far as Barry knows can't infect sparks) and all sorts of possibilities open up. Brianmce 21:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::Technically, any work of fiction really has infinite possibilities. The Foglios could just write the next couple pages declaring that Agatha uses the magic of Castle Heterodyne to resurrect Lars as an anthropomorphic fox/tiger hybrid (because she was secretly furry all along) and has a threesome with Krosp, while Gil's hair turns white, he sprouts a single angel's wing from his back, and starts calling himself Sephiroth. Fiction that actively seeks to narrow down all these infinite possibilities by adhering to some sort of internal logic is much rarer than fiction that doesn't, and ones that maintain a compelling plot while doing so rarer still. ::::::Me, I like puzzles, and trying to figure out where an author is going with a story before he or she actually gets there is part of the entertainment. Assuming "Girl Genius" remains consistent, I don't see your scenario as being that much more likely, especially since it introduces even more unknowns than the one I put forward. We don't know whether Bill Heterodyne is dead or not, let alone whether Lucrezia or a time-travelling Klaus killed him or was framed for it. More to the point, "suspicious absence" is not proof itself (except to conspiracy theorists, who pretty much figure everything is a confirmation of what they already believe anyhow). The mere absence of Wulfenbach would not be cause for suspicion to any rational person, let alone cause for all the blood spilled over the assumption that Wulfenbach was, if not The Other, then at least a betrayer. Wulfenbach would have had to have shown up at some point, before Barry left again, and while he may have shown up killed Bill, there's a lot more evidence, including several possible bits of author foreshadowing, to suggest that they learned he destroyed Castle Heterodyne. For example, "You guys really do sign everything, don't you?" It could hint that, even if nobody saw Wulfenbach attack Castle Heterodyne, the simple fact that the remnants of the ordinance used (and there would have to be remnants, considering how many weapons would be necessary) bore little "Wulfenbach" logos would be pretty good evidence that Wulfenbach was involved somehow. Tatter D 17:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::: The possibility of remnants of ordinance being found is evidence against the theory not for it. It's something that we'd have expected Barry and Bill to find when investigating after the attack, not something they would have discovered between their departure and when Barry "came back", which we know is when Barry actually did find out about whatever it was. The fact that they didn't find any such evidence, and that none of the other survivors (or for that matter, Klaus himself when he took control of the castle and launched his own investgation) is fairly strong evidence against Klaus being involved, at least openly or in person. I agree that my Bill theory is by no means strong - its just a pet theory based on some circumstantial evidence (that Lucrezia's actions in getting rid of Klaus at that exact time were perfect first steps in establishing a frame), but it at least fits the timing of Barry's discovery, which the castle attack doesn't. For Klaus to be involved in the castle attack you need to suppose that he did so in such a way that no survivors saw him, he left no evidence on the scene but did leave some evidence wherever the boys went. Brianmce 21:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::::How do you know when Barry made his discovery? For all we can know, they might have discovered Wulfenbach's possible involvement the night the castle was destroyed, but made locating and rescuing the vanished Lucrezia a priority. They could even have engaged in the mirror image of the Baron's refusal to accuse Agatha without damning evidence, and ended up getting led to the same sort of incorrect conclusion the Baron was. Tatter D 14:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::::: Judy gives the reason for hiding as "Barry came back". If it was something Barry already knew before departing, then that doesn't really answer the question - there's no reason coming back would mean anything to Klaus unless she first said "Barry found (something) at the castle". It strongly suggests that it was necessary for Barry to have gone wherever he went to have learned it. Further, for that scenario to make sense you'd have to assume that not only did the Boys not reveal what they found (in their stronghold surrounded by loyal allies who they will have been interviewing), but that someone also covered up whatever evidence they found between them investigating, and Punch and Judy (or others) trying to find what had happened to them. Certainly by the time Klaus arrived there would have to be no evidence remaining or Dr Beetle's notes wouldn't have been such a surprise to him. Given that knowledgable residents like Carson are still alive it doesn't look like any such coverup took place, nor can I see any reason why anyone would do so. Brianmce 18:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC) :::::::::: As I said elsewhere, she said "Barry came back" because she assumed the Baron would already know the significance of her statement, and would be thrown off balance by it just before Punch attacked. Which he would have been, if it weren't for the fact that it was a future Baron Wulfenbach who would have understood it, instead of the one they were facing. People don't always say things because they want others to know the truth, after all, especially when the person they're talking to is, from their perspective, an evil guy with powerful minions cutting off their escape route. :::::::::: However, the fact that Bill and Barry never revealed their suspicions to anyone else (except Beetle, Punch, and Judy, apparently) does make it unlikely that they discovered absolute proof before the Pax Wulfenbach started. If they had gone public with such knowledge, even Barry alone could have stopped Wulfenbach in his tracks, probably without even revealing he still lived. Maybe, at the time of Castle Heterodyne's destruction, they simply refused to believe that the friend they knew for so long could ever be motivated to kill an innocent, let alone little Klaus Barry, and so discounted or even concealed the inital evidence, assuming it was a frame job (after all, anyone can draw a Wulfenbach sigil on their weapons if they wanted to frame Klaus badly enough). Perhaps the time-travelling Klaus could have destroyed Castle Heterodyne, led Bill and Barry on a merry chase across Europa, and in the end, as you said, killed Bill Heterodyne, all on The Other's orders. It would definitely take something extraordinary to permanently turn Barry against Wulfenbach, especially the harsh but fair Wulfenbach we knew from the beginning of the Girl Genius series. Tatter D 22:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::: Once you've got an extra event learned during their travels though, all the reasons for assuming Klaus was involved in the castle attack vanish. Since we need more for Barry to be convinced of Klaus's guilt anyway, we're already acknowledging that the evidence for the attack is insufficient, but whatever he found later was. That means the castle attack evidence is an unneccessary and thus unsupported assumption in the chain of events - whatever he found after would be enough. Occam's razor would lead me to assume that that that second discovery was in fact the only one, especially because of the extra complications we need to introduce to explain why no-one else discovered any involvement of Klaus in the attack. Carson was on the scene before the Boys arrived, and there were 144 survivors among the castle staff alone. Did none of them see anything during the attack, or find the evidence that Barry found? Or did Barry swear them all to secrecy which they kept even after the Boys vanished and Klaus took over the castle? You'd think Carson would have mentioned their suspicions to Agatha at least. For that matter the Castle itself would be an even better witness, but doesn't seem to bear the Wulfenbachs any particular animosity or feel the need to fill Agatha in. And again, there's the Von Pinn problem: The slightest suspicion of Klaus's involvement picked up during or after the attack that killed her ward and she'd be attacking Klaus, not working for him. Its a nice theory, but I think that the timings of events remove all the support it initially appears to have going for it, and the assumptions you have to make to explain the missing evidence make it very unlikely to have happened. :::::::::::: Oh well, so much for that theory. I'm not afraid of being wrong, at least. Tatter D 03:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC) One major reason why I am disinclined to believe that Klaus (time-traveling or not) attacked the Castle back then is Lucrezia's reaction here. She doesn't take him seriously as a threat, and is surprised that he is back in Europe at all. If he had been the attacker back then, would she really say: "Very well. Klaus is here. How droll. How much trouble can he be?" Jürgen Hubert 15:17, 22 November 2008 (CET) +Note that Klaus who destroyed Castle Heterodyne 19 years back. He does, however, know what Beetle thought Klaus was guilty of--a claim of Barry's that was recorded in Beetle's notes, but that to Klaus. Let's assume for the moment that Klaus really doesn't know who, exactly, destroyed Castle Heterodyne. (If Klaus is lying to one or more people, the analysis is impossibly complicated.) If the Klaus-did-it theory were correct, then Present Klaus would have read Beetle's notes in which Barry said 'Klaus' attacked the castle. Present Klaus knows that he hasn't done that, so he would have concluded that the attacking Klaus was either (a) an impostor or (b) Future Klaus. The nature of Present Klaus's conversation with Dupree does not suggest that Present Klaus thinks time travel will become his. Thus, it seems more likely that whatever Barry is blaming Klaus for, it's not for attacking the castle. --DryBrook 21:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC) It's possible Barry thought Klaus had... made with the experimenting with Lucrezia, resulting in little Klaus Heterodyne. Unlikely, but, as was said by the Seneschal, "it's amazing how many people forget the math!" Especially considering the biological capabilities of the Mongfishes. Also, it is quite possible an Evil Lucrezia would taunt Bill with such a claim, regardless of the truth. Thus, an accusation Klaus finds ridiculous, but Barry would find damning. -- Wandered In